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<<I vote for Elpazi>> Would it be considered bad form to say "Only a Prydaen would want to look and smell like a Wookiee?" Mute Reply |
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by someone that turns into part wookie when the moon is just right? Not really. (hehe) ~T Reply |
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"Would it be considered bad form to say "Only a Prydaen would want to look and smell like a Wookiee?"" Remember its not wise to upset a wookie... Reply |
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Wookies? Wrong Universe peoples. Now behave, and stop tweaking each other like that, eh? Chisoni Reply |
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He started it.
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<<Wookies? Wrong Universe peoples. Now behave, and stop tweaking each other like that, eh?>> Pfft, you can draw too many parallels for them ALL to be coincidence. Besides, Veyl is known for his good taste. <<He started it.>> LOL, I did not. I merely umm. Okay, so maybe I did! What of it? Mute Reply |
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<<LOL, I did not. I merely umm. Okay, so maybe I did! What of it?>> hehe Reply |
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"He started it." ROFLMAO. Thats good.. I like that Reply |
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that was beautiful..."he started it"...hehe...i wish i could take credit for that one as for the wrong universe thing...sir robyn brings to mind images of middle-aged english men skipping about with coconuts in their hands...and smelly cat? gimme a break. we just can't call 'em wookies and we're in the clear Jaebom --i still wish i could take credit for the "he started it" remark. that was classic Reply |
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<<i still wish i could take credit for the "he started it" remark. that was classic>> HEHE ~Ternith Reply |
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For what I've seen, Prydaen's Guru or GM or whatever they title themselves as, has be quite generous with the Cats. Now, hows about ya get going with the lil people races. I think Gnomes have it the worst off cause all they can do is kick yer shins. (Don't quote me though.) Secondly, why must all s'kra have slender tails? why must all elves have the same sized pointed ears? Why not has a male s'kra with a thick, strong tail, and a female with the slender tail?*dodges feminists*. And elves, I would think an elf womans ears would be more petite than a males... Finally, ya should make it so us S'kra can join the various clans as a post title, I think someone said this before though. Thanks for reading. Derocius, S'kra Ranga Reply |
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>Secondly, why must all s'kra have slender tails? why must all elves have the same sized pointed ears? Why not has a male s'kra with a thick, strong tail, and a female with the slender tail?*dodges feminists*. Hmmm... I had this crazy idea that S'Kra females were larger than S'Kra males <winks>... its probably pretty likely that I'm wrong, athough I seem to remeber one of the GM's saying, when the S'Kra racial pic came out, that the bigger S'Kra was a female. (Anyone else remember anything about that?) >And elves, I would think an elf womans ears would be more petite than a males... <winks> I dunno... some of those male elves have been described as being very effeminate... Marvelous ideas, and I think Damissak or one of the GMs hinted at someday being able to specify the size of features like tails. But, and bear with me for a moment, what if GM Ellerina stated that Female S'Kra were bigger and stronger than male S'Kra? Somehow I doubt you would like being pidgeonholed into having a delicate tail and slender ankles. That would probably go against your RP as a tough S'Kra ranga. (just guessing, who knows.) You would probably like to be able to stick with your RP and your image of your S'Kra, that he's strong and thick-tailed for a male. So yes, it would be a great thing to have a little diversity with our features... but lets not pidgeonhole everyone without a care to how they RP their character. <grins> *Slash & Snap* Reply |
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S'kra females are larger than males, yes. (But don't ever use that picture as a reference for anything) Toren Sunreign-Jade-Stone, S'kra Gopher Reply |
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Ya, I know S'kra females are bigger than males, but that has nothing to do with tail size. Bigger can be in the waist, and height, while males are slightly stockier and more muscle. *Grins* And who says I dun wanna be smaller then a woman. *winks* I shall say no more.
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<<For what I've seen, Prydaen's Guru or GM or whatever they title themselves as, has be quite generous with the Cats.>> I will not flame. I will not flame. I will not flame. Our Prydaen Racial Champions rule. 'nuff said. ~Ternith Reply |
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My viewpoint: I personally think that every race with the exception of humans and elves should stick to their own race, especially Prydaens and S'Kra; even the human/elf couple seems like a bad idea to me, since the human will be dead long-before the elven partner even begins to grow physically old. A Dwarf and elf, human, or Gor'Tog (or any given combination of that sorts) doesn't occur to me as being compatible at all, but it can and has happened. After all, the GM's make the game, but the players are the ones who control their characters. As far as the interracial offspring thing goes, the concept that a birthing beween a human and elf creates child of either human or elven race just sounds like GM laziness in creativity to me. Of course, I can see where it makes partial since, since players aren't able to select mixed-raced characters in the character manager (should they want to roleplay the child of a couple), but that's not enough of a reason to me. It seems as if one parent serves as a virus to produce his/her offspring and the other parent is a host of sorts to in which he/she assists in producing the host's offspring, instead of a child with mixed traits from both races (which I think is how it should go). But that's just my theory. Reply |
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If they did that, then there would be some really ugly Tog/Gnome people.. *shivers* I still cannot figure out how the hell they can consemate....
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<<If they did that, then there would be some really ugly Tog/Gnome people.. *shivers* I still cannot figure out how the hell they can consemate....>> I think I've got part of it figured out, but it has to do with a rumour I heard about male Gor'Togs. Which is really funny because Halfling men... nevermind. Reply |
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>> I will not flame. I will not flame. I will not flame. >> Our Prydaen Racial Champions rule. 'nuff said. Hee! >> For what I've seen, Prydaen's Guru or GM or whatever they title themselves as, has be quite generous with the Cats. Is that "has to be" or "have/has been"? Just curious. (No, I'm not knocking typos, just wanting to know the correct meaning.) <wanders back to a vacation> Chisoni Reply |
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Has been, sorry, I type to fast for my own good.
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>> Has been, sorry, I type to fast for my own good. Okay! :) Just checking. Chisoni Reply |
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Get back on vacation Chisoni. That's an order.... Geez, ya think when they say they going away to rest, they'll actually do it.... ***Thwap*** Ecoles Reply |
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Two things: If a human set to common is in a room with a fellow human set to gamgweth does the human set to common understand the gamgweth? Will it ever be possible to learn languages that aren't your race's? I think bards would like the beauty of the Elven language. Thanks. Opieus Tuer ~ Human Warrior Mage Reply |
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>> Get back on vacation Chisoni. That's an order.... But but but, I was bored! <whine> :P Okay okay, I'll try and actually vacation on my vacation, but I'm not making any promises. Chisoni Reply |
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Well Chisone, FFX comes out in 4 days.... We'll not be seeing you much then, so I guess anything we gets right now is good stuff. Ecoles Reply |
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<<If a human set to common is in a room with a fellow human set to gamgweth does the human set to common understand the gamgweth??>> Yes, the setting is only to determine what language the character will be speaking. Reply |
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bards have been wanting EVERY language!!! the ability to learn them only, not simply have them by the good grace of silvyrfrost (her only grace is in the way she walks...also the only reason the men in the guild listen to her...and half the women) Jaebom --i'd personally go for elothean first, i know this cute little empath... Reply |
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What about.... for every 100 ranks of scholarship you get to learn an additional language? Except for Bards, who could learn an additional one every 50 ranks of scholarship? Delg (not a bard, but knows a few) Reply |
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you are a friggin genious...and i'm o nly 7 ranks off a second language by that system Jaebom --s'kra with dreams of speaking ilithi, elothean, and prydaen so he's not left in the dark all the time Reply |
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Well, could always propose a system like this: Every 100 ranks for Lore primary Guilds. Every 150 ranks for Lore secondary and tertiary Guilds. Considering the only people I know with 150+ ranks of scholarship belonging to secondary/tert Guilds are in/around/over 70th circle, seems pretty reasonable to me. Loq Reply |
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Honestly, just about any guild can claim some right to learning a language earlier. Traders are exposed to more languages in their travels and dealing with clerks of many areas. MoonMages are scholors and with no combat requirments have the time to put into such studies. Clerics on missionary trips need to know the local language....ect, ect. I think the scholorship level for everyone should be around 50 or less....but that the process of learning the language be a long one, something like learning an intrument for non-bards. There would be alot of sputtering and such for awhile. Now, here's what I think would be cool. Choose one race that can teach others languages. And that of course would be Gnomes. We Gnomes are the smartest (alteast the best int bonus) and we have no language of our own...we share the Kaldar's. Here's the process... A Gnome learns a language (or all the languages) from either book studies or npc. They then can teach others. But, there's a limit to it. If the Gnome is teaching a Dwarf then the Gnome must switch to speaking the Dwarvan language and then teach the new language. Any Dwarf then can join the class. But only Dwarfs. It's alot easier to learn a language when its tought to you from your native tongue and not your second. That's just my idea. Brother Qaton. Reply |
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>I think the scholorship level for everyone should be around 50 or less....but that the process of learning the language be a long one, something like learning an intrument for non-bards. There would be alot of sputtering and such for awhile. >Now, here's what I think would be cool. Choose one race that can teach others languages. And that of course would be Gnomes. We Gnomes are the smartest (alteast the best int bonus) and we have no language of our own...we share the Kaldar's. >Here's the process... A Gnome learns a language (or all the languages) from either book studies or npc. They then can teach others. But, there's a limit to it. If the Gnome is teaching a Dwarf then the Gnome must switch to speaking the Dwarvan language and then teach the new language. Any Dwarf then can join the class. But only Dwarfs. It's alot easier to learn a language when its tought to you from your native tongue and not your second. Yeah! Everyone can learn all the languages!!!11 No... Dragonseal Reply |
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The req should be at least 100. 50's just a mere practioner of scholarship, and can be achieved really fast. Lore skills at 100 or more are actually mildly impressive. However, I just think the person that speaks the racial language would teach it, and they should have to have 100 teaching and 100 scholar or something like that. That way higher up people could speak a second language, but you wouldn't see too many with more than 3 languages known. (I've seen GMNPCs know multiple languages so it is possible from a system point of view). Toren Sunreign-Jade-Stone, S'kra Gopher who'd really like to learn Prydaenese and whose mate would probably like learning S'kra Mur. Reply |
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<<That way higher up people could speak a second language, but you wouldn't see too many with more than 3 languages known.>> Problem is, it's not that difficult to learn a third or fourth... or fifth language. It's the second that's the tricky one. Now, level of fluency could be an issue. Wondering if you had a Human speaking Haakish... > Delgareth says in accented Haakish, "Welcome, friend." Reply |
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only problem with giving the ability to gnomes only: almost no bardic gnomes. the problem here is that bards would lynch every gnome they came across just to spite the person who put this into effect because bards have been wanting the ability to learn and teach languages for years. i really don't wanna see anything like that given to a race that tends to be mostly empaths, moonies, and the odd barbarian, paladin, or cleric. you could argue that moonies and empaths are good teachers, but bards are supposed to be the best (despite the fact that the GMs ignored what they stated about our guild and seem to have made moonies better at all things scholarly when they aren't even lore primary!!) if ya ask me, i'd say give bonuses to learning to certain guilds like traders, moonies, and a bigger one to bards, and a huge bonus to teaching it to bards. this has nothin to do with me bein a bard, it just makes sence to me to give the supposedly best storytellers and teachers who're supposed to be very good scholars and who are very adept at things of a verbal and musical nature to be able to learn and teach languages with an ease that others would not possess. i'm not saying others should not possess these skills, just that bards would be better at it, sorta like a mage is better with magic than a bard, and a ranger is better at survival than a paladin. everyone's got that which they're best at, i think language learning and teaching would fall into what bards are best at. Jaebom --i still wanna learn elothean damnit!! Reply |
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OK, how about this... since Bards are suppose to be the record keepers/story tellers let them have the ability to understand multiple languages....not speak them. I know I can read and listen to alot more languages than I can actually speak. This would let them fullfill their roles as record keepers of cultures and not overdue it. This could also spur some to speak their native tongue more often if there could be a translator around. I know an Elothean bard that wouldn't mind knowing what all the little Gnomes around her are talking about sometimes. Reply |
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> you could argue that moonies and empaths are good teachers, but bards are supposed to be the best Actualy, they claim that empaths are supposed to be the best teachers in elanthia. We have the highest teaching req and are lore primary. Technicaly, we're supposed to be the ultimate scholars, though we really should be considered a magic prime guild. Personaly, I'd be really ticked to see anyone who wasn't prydaen speaking and understanding prydaenese perfectly. I'd rather see anyone who wasn't natively that race only be able to get a poor grasp of the language at best. Like hear the words, but mangled up a bit and thus hard to read and understand. -Kitrinx Reply |
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where's it said that empaths are the best teachers? seems i missed that somewhere. though i've heard it many times that bards are supposed to fit that bill. as for the jumbling of languages to non-native speakers, i know many people who have learned 4 or 5 other languages fluently or nearly so, and i know there are others out there who know more than that. i see nothing wrong with learning a couple extra languages fluently, or at least being able to understand with few problems, even if your speaking of the language isn't the greatest. Jaebom --i will not settle for mediocre understanding if i can learn a language, IC or OOC Reply |
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Ooookay. Once again. 100 ranks of scholarship to learn a new language for Lore primary Guilds (Empaths, Bards, Traders). 150 ranks for secondary & tertiary guilds. Your Charisma modifies how well you SPEAK foreign languages. Intelligence determines how well you understand (hear) foreign languages. Toren's idea for the ability to teach the language is a good one. The teacher has to have 100 teaching and scholarship, speak the language as a native and the class takes about an hour (non-stop). A non-native teacher needs 150 teaching and scholarship. Loq Reply |
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How about we have something in the game which is specific to the individual races, instead?Something like.... languages. Personally, I do not want people to be learning specific languages other than the languages they are born with. Michael, aka Humm "Proud Ears" Breaux Reply |
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yet you don't object to a common language? obviously you've never been the only s'kra in a room fulla elvens and prydaen all speaking their own languages between each other. it's honestly quite annoying, especially for us bards who aren't elven or prydaen...roughly a third of the guild is elven and another third is prydaen. and what about when you're married to someone of another race and they're in a conversation with people of their own race? the sheer annoyance of these things is honestly unessessary. there's nothing IC to prevent someone from speaking another language other than the lack of game mechanics, and maybe severe difficulty pronouncing the words (i'd assume s'kra would be difficult for other races to speak, as would rakash and prydaen due to anatomical reasons). i, as well as MANY other people, have wanted the ability to learn new languages for years, and game mechanics already support speaking more than just 2 languages, as several GMPCs have demonstrated in the past. there are those who wish to roleplay being raised by another race, and the inability to learn the language of that race is a serious hobble to their roleplaying. Jaebom --why does it seem only the prydaen object to this? are they that worried that we'll learn what they're saying about us? Reply |
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>almost no bardic gnomes Gnome bards are the best... Reply |
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>there's nothing IC to prevent someone from speaking another language other than the lack of game mechanics Isn't that the very reason the languages exist, rather than having only common? To make the races more distinct? I know that prydaens can purr and meow, skra can hiss, and no one else can do so as well. I can see it quite reasonable that no one could speak prydaen as well as a prydaen. Other races have differences too, some people IRL can speak 5 or so languages, true, but they usualy learn them at young ages, and they're not different species racial languages. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to have racial languages maintained as a feature of being that particular race, rather than having every bard waltz in and be able to understand what you say when you are only talking to your kin. -Kitrinx Reply |
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>Jaebom --why does it seem only the prydaen object to this? are they that worried that we'll learn what they're saying about us? Yes, that is the general idea isnt it? Whats the bloody point of having the lauguages if everyone can just learn them all? Dragoonseal, who just might be saying bad things about you, right to your face, but you'd never know, mwuahahahahah *cough hack cough* P.S. There are plenty of things we would wish to keep private and not just 'ave some non-Prydaen sit listening to our meetings and such. Reply |
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>Yes, that is the general idea isnt it? Whats the bloody point of having the lauguages if everyone can just learn them all?< Hence a scholarship requirement, meaning nobody will have more than 1 or 2 extras. Hefty, like 100-150 each. I need some motivation to learn lore skills, they're dumb currently. >Dragoonseal, who just might be saying bad things about you, right to your face, but you'd never know, mwuahahahahah *cough hack cough*< After Toren being a mate to a Prydaen for years, as well as having been around said Prydaen for 9 Elanthia years (and being stuck in many situations where only Prydaenese was being spoken), it would make some sense that I'd have picked up some Prydaenese. Just as she should know some S'kra Mur. In fact, learning other languages has been said by GMs multiple times that it's something they're thinking of doing. (I don't think they've ever committed, they're too smart for that *chuckles*) >P.S. There are plenty of things we would wish to keep private and not just 'ave some non-Prydaen sit listening to our meetings and such.< So go someplace truly private or whisper. Isn't very hard. I don't have sympathy for people not wanting others to be able to learn languages (which has been asked for since languages came out) because they "don't want to have some non-<insertracehere> listening to their meeting". I've held private meetings on things before, I don't need a special language nobody but my group knows to do it. I can see maybe having issues speaking any language but your racial one, but learning how to listen to one is a lot easier. Toren Sunreign-Jade-Stone, S'kra Gopher Reply |
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<<Whats the bloody point of having the lauguages if everyone can just learn them all?>> The _most_ scholarly person in DR right now would be able to speak six languages, including Common and their native tongue. Six out of twelve. To be frank, I don't think that's bad. It's hardly ALL, although it is a lot. Loq Reply |
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if you're THAT worried about non prydaen understanding, why don't you just get 'em all in a group and whisper to 'em? that's what most sane people do when they wanna keep something private, but then you *are* prydaen, we'd just ask too many questions about what you're saying, after all, we are the inferior, aren't we? Jaebom --i don't tolerate gross ignorance very well Reply |
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>I don't have sympathy for people not wanting others to be able to learn languages (which has been asked for since languages came out) And I don't have sympathy for people wanting others to be able to learn the languages. If it was something for you to have, it would of come out with the lauguages. >because they "don't want to have some non-<insertracehere> listening to their meeting That was one example, I could go on and on with more (but won't). Using your logic, then the only reason at all for anyone to learn another language would be for married couples to be able ta learn their mates language (something I've always been for actually), otherwise there wouldnt be a need for it (and isnt). >The _most_ scholarly person in DR right now would be able to speak six languages, including Common and their native tongue. Six out of twelve. To be frank, I don't think that's bad. It's hardly ALL, although it is a lot. I see that as too much... learning 2 others would be the most I could see one learning. Dragoonseal Reply |
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>if you're THAT worried about non prydaen understanding, why don't you just get 'em all in a group and whisper to 'em? that's what most sane people do when they wanna keep something private I was just using us as an example, but for one, that example is a great example of bad RPing. >but then you *are* prydaen, we'd just ask too many questions about what you're saying, after all, we are the inferior, aren't we? Yes, something I agree with you on there, sense you asked. Dragoonseal Reply |
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<<learning 2 others would be the most I could see one learning>> What? I'm 16 and I can understand more than English and my main foreign language. I know French pretty well, a little German, a little Spanish, and a little Latin. And that's just speaking. I can hear just about any Romance language and get the gist, and reading a Romance language I can almost get it word for word. 2 is just riddiculous. 6 of the 12 languages isn't that much, and that is the best in the game. If you're saying something that private, whisper. There are people of your race, I'm sure, who you don't want to hear your group conversations. As for race meetings, don't let other races attend. Opieus Tuer ~ Human Warrior Mage Reply |
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I just remembered, I started this thread! lol Oh well. Opieus Tuer ~ Human Warrior Mage Reply |
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<<learning 2 others would be the most I could see one learning.>> Oh, you funny American. :P You think foreign languages are so tough because of that word "foreign" in there. Believe me, after the first one they get easier, not harder. Delg's player Reply |
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>Oh, you funny American. :P You think foreign languages are so tough because of that word "foreign" in there. What da 'ell are you freaky people talking about? I'm talking about DR here everyone. Learning 8 lauguages is something that damn well shouldn't happen in DR, there are barely even that many lauguages all together in DR. I was specifically wasn't mentioning anything about RL because if it was that easy, everyone in DR would know just about all the languages there are in DR. Knowing 4 lauguages in DR is damn plenty (too much) in my opinion, probably not yers though. Dragoonseal Reply |
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Dragoonseal, don't split my sentences apart when you respond so you can pick at something that wasn't my point :) The correct thing to quote was "I don't have sympathy for people not wanting others to be able to learn languages (which has been asked for since languages came out) because they "don't want to have some non-<insertracehere> listening to their meeting" which means I think your example was crap, not that I hate you for thinking people shouldn't learn other languages. Thank you in advance for complying. >That was one example, I could go on and on with more (but won't). Using your logic, then the only reason at all for anyone to learn another language would be for married couples to be able ta learn their mates language (something I've always been for actually), otherwise there wouldnt be a need for it (and isnt).< I shall provide another example. I spy on people. What if they speak a different language? I'm basically screwed cause there's no IC way to tell what they're saying. I can't even get out my pocket-Haakish dictionary and translate. I can get just as many examples of reasons why languages would be good and useful as you could in another direction. Toren Sunreign-Jade-Stone, S'kra Gopher Reply |
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>Oh, you funny American. :P You think foreign languages are so tough because of that word "foreign" in there. Ah, but those are all languages humans speak. Who can say how easy it would be to speak the language of another species? Since we humans dont happen to have any members of other species as 'intelligent' as ourselves hanging around good ol earth, its hard to say whether or not a human could be expected to pick up the language of a S'Kra as easily as an english speaker picks up say, french. Just something to consider. I'm not really big on a bunch of soft mouthed furless mangling the Prydaen language, or mangling the S'Kra language either, but its not gonna get my pants in a knot if they do figure it out. *Snap & Slash* Reply |
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>>>Ah, but those are all languages humans speak. Who can say how easy it would be to speak the language of another species? Since we humans dont happen to have any members of other species as 'intelligent' as ourselves hanging around good ol earth, its hard to say whether or not a human could be expected to pick up the language of a S'Kra as easily as an english speaker picks up say, french. Not to mention, when most people learn another language, it's usually in the same family as the language they learned. Such as Spanish and French both grew out of Latin. Unless someone learns something like Russian and Spanish. -Targon Reply |
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>>What da 'ell are you freaky people talking about? I'm talking about DR here everyone. Learning 8 lauguages is something that damn well shouldn't happen in DR, there are barely even that many lauguages all together in DR. I was specifically wasn't mentioning anything about RL because if it was that easy, everyone in DR would know just about all the languages there are in DR. Knowing 4 lauguages in DR is damn plenty (too much) in my opinion, probably not yers though. You act as though getting 400 ranks in scholarship is such an easy task. (That is if we are going on the assumption that 100 ranks=1 langauge) Heck I'm a 30+ circle Cleric and I would only be eligible to learn one additional langauge and Clerics have some of the highest Schol reqs in the game. Right now scholarship is basically a useless skill. I would love to see a langauge system based on it. And why couldn't a fairly studious and intelligent person learn to speak another langauge? I mean RPwise there are enough books in the realms dealing with langauge and with the huge extended families in the realms you don't think at some point SOMEONE would have taught their kid to speak another langauge? It makes perfect RP sense for a person to be able to learn a tounge other than their own and can only serve to enhance RP. And if you think people learning too many langauges is a problem, I dare you to find one person under 80th circle who has over 400 scholarship. And I dare you even further to find one who is not an Empath or a Cleric. >>And I don't have sympathy for people wanting others to be able to learn the languages. If it was something for you to have, it would of come out with the lauguages. Don't make me go on about how many systems have been update since they came out. Even system that we were told would "never" change. SC and player of Reply |
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Try learning japanese, korean, hebrew, arabic(whatever the right name for it is), swahili, and english well enough to speak/listen to them all. That's more like what DR languages are. DR races are far more seperate than human cultures are, and many have different physical charactaristics that would probobly let them make different sounds. Just because it annoys you that you can't be part of a clique doesn't mean that the people who are proud of their race and like to speak aloud to only their race members should have that feature stolen from them. If they wanted to talk to all races, then they'd be speaking in common. Bonding, as mentioned before, is the only time I could see that kind of exception being appropriate. I think it would be better to add new languages that NO race started with, in other words, languages that were only obtainable by learning them from books, scrolls, quests, npcs, etc. -Kitrinx Reply |
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>Just because it annoys you that you can't be part of a clique doesn't mean that the people who are proud of their race and like to speak aloud to only their race members should have that feature stolen from them.< So in other words, just cause your reasons are OOC you want to keep it? :) Toren Reply |
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>>Ah, but those are all languages humans speak. Who can say how easy it would be to speak the language of another species? Since we humans dont happen to have any members of other species as 'intelligent' as ourselves hanging around good ol earth, its hard to say whether or not a human could be expected to pick up the language of a S'Kra as easily as an english speaker picks up say, french. There is almost no similarity between English and Chinese, either written or spoken. Yet with enough effort I can learn how to read and write in Chinese if I really wanted to. Think of that 100 ranks of scholarship as putting in the effort. If there were no similarities between the langauges at all, then Common couldn't exist as there would be no base of translation. In fact if you really think about it, someone would have HAD to learn Rakash, Gorbesh, and Pyrdaenese in order to teach the forgein races Common. The universal use of Common would make learning langauges even easier. SC and player of Reply |
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>Dragoonseal, don't split my sentences apart when you respond so you can pick at something that wasn't my point :) The correct thing to quote was "I don't have sympathy for people not wanting others to be able to learn languages (which has been asked for since languages came out) because they "don't want to have some non-<insertracehere> listening to their meeting" When I quoted: >but then you *are* prydaen, we'd just ask too many questions about what you're saying, after all, we are the inferior, aren't we? I was quoting the whole thing, but didnt wanna paste the whole thing twice in a row, I thought it was gonna look stupid. So just imagin that I pasted the whole quote out twice, then reread my post. And then for the Ima spy example... yer other example was better then that even. If you need to spy on us (or whoever) that badly, hire a translator to sneak in, or just spy on us with you and translate. Thats more IG then pulling out a pocket-Haakish dictionary and trying to follow what 11 people are talking about, at a fairly good speed. Dragoonseal Reply |
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>>Try learning japanese, korean, hebrew, arabic(whatever the right name for it is), swahili, and english well enough to speak/listen to them all. Yet there are people out there who are quite capable of speak all of these langauges, though they are few and far between. Believe it or not I have a friend who speaks fluent English and Korean, because he grew up in a houshold where both were spoken, converted to Judiasm so he learned basic Hebrew, and learned Spanish after living in Spain for 3 years <g> All are very different langauges, but he can at least hold a semi decent conversation in all of them. And face it, if a Pyrdean dictionary/grammer book came out next week, I could study it and speak to you in it and though I might be speaking perfect Pyrdeanese a Pyrdaen who's never looked at the dictionary wouldn't be able to understand a word I say, different physical structure or not. The only real problem I have with learning langauges is that it really would be a case of all or nothing. If they found a way to put in incrimental steps that would be super nifty. Or found a way that the langauges would acutally be translated when then are spoken rather than say "Halfling says something in Olvi" that would be super duper nifty. SC and player of Reply |
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>And if you think people learning too many langauges is a problem, I dare you to find one person under 80th circle who has over 400 scholarship. And I dare you even further to find one who is not an Empath or a Cleric. Alright ya got a point there. If it was 150 for an extra language then 2 extra would be the most any would get for a bit ;). Its just because people don't like to train it, I 'ave just a bit under 100 myself, and I'm a barb, its not _hard_ to train, just that people generally don't like doing it. Same reason most people don't have many brawl ranks ;). <Points to Kitrinx's post a few times> There ya go, she said it a hell of a lot better then I was trying to say it. =) Dragoonseal Reply |
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I think if a language learning system is ever implimented Bards should get a huge bonus. Just my thoughts. -Fre' Reply |
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Actually, let me explain something to everyone... I speak 4 languages fluently, and learning a 5th one. I'm only 19, and originally a speaker of Portuguese, English being my third learnt language. Now on those premises, learning new languages become easier after the second one but (and this is a bit BUT), only if those languages are of the same linguistic root. Lets say for example, the Romance languages that have been spoken of (these are mainly - portuguese, french, spanish and latin, with English taking a bit of this, but also some from the Germanic root) I speak Portuguese, Spanish, English and French, and learning Korean at the moment. Korean comes from a completely different background then all other languages I know, and I can tell you, it's harder to learn then it was to learn my second language. Why? Simply due to the fact of my own voalition. Let's say I'm reading Korean, and a word seems very similar to one in one of the forementioned languages, my mind instantly assumes the meaning of the word to be the same, and this increases with the number of languages one learns. Although this wouldn't be the fact if one learned languages from all different linguistical roots, nullifying the problem. Now, let's apply the same concept to that of our wonderful game of DR. Common.... a language used by all. Let's take in comparison now, the S'kra Mur language and the Prydaen language. On the first hand, one has the S'kra Mur, a race that created some things (and pardon my ignorance) and had a vast empire (or so I think), on the second hand there's a partial nomadic, solitary race, where books were not widely used, where history was passed in the forms of songs and poems (That's why all Prydaen books are written by non-prydaens). Now, the linguistic roots of both there races would be completely different, due to obvious physical differences and to an extent cultural, since either race had no contact with the other before the Prydaen/Rakash migration. Such reasons would make the trading of languages between the two races near impossible. Why you might ask? Prydaen superior attitude would deem another language, other then common (which they would use to communicate with the lesser races), inferior to their person and therefore never bother to learn it, and if I'm not mistaken, so would the S'kra Murs have a similar, if slightly modified, reason for not learning other languages. Now, while I have no problem with awarding one guild, and at this I would think Bard would be the best at this, awarding the "masses" to learn other languages to be improbable. Maybe similar languages , or those that have been around each other so that a mixing of the languages would take place (this is known to happen in our world) would be awarded learning of other languages similar to their own (ie. Elves, Dwarves and Humans have been around each other for countless generations, or depending on the race, not so countless, and therefore some of their languages would mix together, allowing one of the three to learn each other's languages), and maybe Prydaen and Rakash (but it has been said that Prydaens were given a device by Eu that allowed the Claw of Azca, which was the trading "group" of Prydaens, allowing them to comunicate with the Rakash, where both parties would understand each other). I'm not against the learning of other languages, as long as this ability is awarded to a few, as much as the Prydaens would not like others being able to understand some of the things they talk about, so would everyone else. Ecoles, (yes I am a Prydaen, and no, not biased) I'm still Reply |
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>>its not _hard_ to train Oh but it's slow and painful, slow and painful <g> SC and player of Reply |
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>Just because it annoys you that you can't be part of a clique doesn't mean that the people who are proud of their race and like to speak aloud to only their race members should have that feature stolen from them.< > So in other words, just cause your reasons are OOC you want to keep it? :) > Toren And the OOC part of that was...? Dragoonseal Reply |
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See.. everyone has common for the same reason for the translators in Star Trek. The game has to be at least somewhat user-friendly. Ye probably understand what I mean. Dragoonsea, who's going to bed, will continue this later =) Reply |
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I speak German, Serbian, and a smattering of French. That's three language groups right there (and two alphabets). Granted, all are Indo-European languages, but one's Germanic, one's Slavic, and one's a Romance language... not all that closely related. I was trying to lighten things up a bit with my "silly American" comment. But there's a lot of truth to it. Many people in other parts of the world speak more than one language on a daily basis, and picking up a new language is only tough if you've never done it before, be it Spanish, Swahili, or American Sign Language. Anyway... my basic point being... languages are NOT that tough to learn, so they A) should be learnable and B) shouldn't take savant levels in Scholarship to do it. Bards and Traders should have a bonus or advantage of some sort, yes, but neither should it be exclusive to them. Delg's player Reply |
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Let me be the first to give you a lesson in speaking in the Prydaen language. *THWAP!* *THWAP! THWAP!* That means you have got to be kidding me with this entire thread. ~Ternith, Thwap clan. Reply |
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>Such reasons would make the trading of languages between the two races near impossible. Why you might ask? Prydaen superior attitude would deem another language, other then common (which they would use to communicate with the lesser races), inferior to their person and therefore never bother to learn it, and if I'm not mistaken, so would the S'kra Murs have a similar, if slightly modified, reason for not learning other languages. Yes, but Common provide literally a common ground for the exchange of langauges, it sort of the Rosetta Stone of DR. And taken from "Words Every Trader Should Know" >>Sometimes a little coaxing in a person's native tongue makes the difference between a happy customer and "not interested." Here's a start, though if ye deal frequently with a particular race, ye should take the trouble to learn the language. (I'm leaving out Elothean 'cause it's a bunch of mishmash that makes Elven seem simple. The highbrows won't expect ye to know it anyway.) The book then proceeds to list words in several langauges, including S'kra which apprently the author didn't deem "too hard" and in fact the Elothean tounge is considered to be the most difficult langauge and the race that is too "aloof" to even expect you to know it. <g> And since the S'kra empire was so widespread, and the Dragon Priest were so darn dangerous, it might have been quite beneficial for many people to learn S'kra ar one point <g> What might be cool it a "tier" system of how hard it is to learn a langauge, either based on difficulty or reclusivness of the race. IE Tier 1 would require 100 ranks of scholarship to learn, Tier 2 a total of 150 to learn and Tier 3 200 ranks to learn. Tiers would be base on presumed difficulty and aloofness of the race. So say Gamgweth was a Tier one langauge, it would require 100 ranks to learn. Then the same person wanted to learn Pyrdaen, a Tier 3 langauge, it would require an ADDITIONAL 200 ranks of schol for a grand total of 300 ranks to learn both langauges. Bards could get a substantial bonus by having the req for Tier 1 langs reduced to 75 ranks, and 100 ranks for all other langauges. SC and player of Reply |
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>>What might be cool it a "tier" system of how hard it is to learn a langauge, either based on difficulty or reclusivness of the race. IE Tier 1 would require 100 ranks of scholarship to learn, Tier 2 a total of 150 to learn and Tier 3 200 ranks to learn. Tiers would be base on presumed difficulty and aloofness of the race. So say Gamgweth was a Tier one langauge, it would require 100 ranks to learn. Then the same person wanted to learn Pyrdaen, a Tier 3 langauge, it would require an ADDITIONAL 200 ranks of schol for a grand total of 300 ranks to learn both langauges. Bards could get a substantial bonus by having the req for Tier 1 langs reduced to 75 ranks, and 100 ranks for all other langauges. First actual idea anyone has posted... Thank you. Would have no proble with something like this. Ecoles Reply |
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I'd give you all a lesson on the common roots of language and Indo-Germanic and all that incredibly fun stuff you learn and quickly forget in High School, but that's not the point here. The point is some languages in a fantasy realm are simply not going to be related to another by any stretch of the imagination. For all I know, you're speaking in tongues. However. This is where the Charisma and the Intelligence come in. Charisma would allow you to sidestep possible taboo and faux pas by indentifying and playing down those hazards. Intelligence allows you to deduce the "jist" of a sentance, or to decipher an entire sentance. Some languages should be hard on some races, yes.. but that's totally moot. I've yet to see any of the people arguing against this speak Common with a heavy accent (as would be the case with languages that come from inhereintly different root systems occurs -- a Chinese person speaking English). Their Common is perfect. And since everyone knows Common, there's a root language here. Since there's a root language, it's safe to assume that all of the existing languages can be learned, with a little work, using the roots established with Common. Until I see Prydaen walking around with severe lisps (and I'll admit, Slashclaw has some interesting inflections and occasional misuse of words, but she's the only Prydaen I've seen doing it besides my own -- and her sentances remain completely coherent and, if you're willing to allow for dialect, grammatically acceptable). I've never seen a Rakash use an inflection (and that includes my own, albeit for a very different set of RP circumstances). In fact, outside of Plat, I've never encountered really odd inflection and truly borderline coherent speech from any of the races. In Plat, I've seen some interesting slurring and blurring of the lines, although in general people tend to "dumb down" their speech more than "flavor" it. Togs, and by this I mean all 'Togs in Plat and togmun, are the only race I've encountered that truly seem to speak a different language. However, and this is important here, I can understand them. When one says "Heyo always-bleeding-bear-furry!" I know they're talking to me. When Actias kindly informs us that "that-bear-furry is deaded by the huge clicky armor thingies, but is helped by climby-scaly-furry!" I know that he means Bakan is dead in warlkins, but Dizzy is there with him (presumably trying to help). There's a root language there. Togs may have their very own dialect of Common (and appropriately so), but since I know Common, I can use what I know to decipher what they're saying. This holds true for all languages. All the races can speak Common, so there is apparently _some_ root between all the races, and therefore it can be assumed, logically, that all the languages are more or less learnable within a reasonable standard. Anyway, I'm rambling (a decidedly Rakash thing to do).. Loq Reply |
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you're missing the point here. you're saying you don't want other languages to be learned so that races are more unique, right? i'm saying that i want languages to be learnable because there ARE people who would need it, such as traders who trade in places where common is not spoken. historically, common was created to provide more unity in the old empire because it would allow everyone to learn 1 language to talk to everyone instead of an extra 6 beyond their native tounge. as for unrelated languages, there's a guy in onna my classes who's a native english speaker who knows japanese very well and is learning chinese, both of which are VERY different from english, and from each other (hell, chinese is a tonal language to some extent) if you wanna get right down to it, s'kra speak common equally as well as humans and prydaens and everything else for that matter, what's the difference if i wanna learn gamgweth and a human wants to learn s'kra if both of us can speak the same language with no trouble? you're just being silly, there's no conceivable thing to stop someone from learning to speak the language of another race. if we were all born knowing common and our racial language, maybe, but any fool knows babies are born without the knowledge to speak (and in the case of people, anatomical inability IRL for several months so that we can breathe and swallow at the same time while we're nursing) where the problem lies beyond game mechanics with learning a new language is is beyond me Jaebom --i'll compromise if you do, but if you're gonna be stubborn, i'm gonna be stubborn too Reply |
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>>i'll compromise if you do, but if you're gonna be stubborn, i'm gonna be stubborn too Now why resort to name calling? That was my first post on the subject, and therefore not being stubborn, that would require a number of posts on the same subject all of them arguing in favor of the original. I belive my points to be valid ones, especially the superiority one, and the the physical differences. Where a Prydaen would be able to make deep growling sounds as it is seen in the following: >>You growl low in the back of your throat. Someone without the Prydaen anatomy be unable to truly speak the language, specially since there is no record of a Prydaen written record up to date, only non-prydaens primary writtings about Prydaen culture/race/history. Same could be said for a Prydaen trying to learn S'kra Mur. The knowledge of understanding could be there, but not that of speach. Ecoles And now you can call me stubborn Reply |
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>where the problem lies beyond game mechanics with learning a new language is is beyond me The problem lies in the fact that it's a game, not RL. In games people do things differently than in RL. In the game, they gave people languages so the races could roleplay and feel more seperate, and common so players could function with one another. With a language like common, having other players ecroach upon racial territory is completely unnescisary, and unwanted by many. -Kitrinx Reply |
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>In the game, they gave people languages so the races could roleplay and feel more seperate, and common so players could function with one another. With a language like common, having other players ecroach upon racial territory is completely unnescisary, and unwanted by many. Sorry, but that is a mute point. Alot of folks don't like graverobbing and stealing, but it is an intergral part of how people RP. If my charactor has been studying elven lore for most of his life, singing and reading elvish stories and song there is no reason why he shouldn't be able to speak the language. I don't think being able to converse in another language is encroaching upon racial territory at all IG and OOC. Would you be offended if a tourist asked you directions in english on how to get somewhere?. Would an elf be offended if a human asked them how much they were selling a long bow for in Illithic? I don't think so and in literary works it proves this as well. <In the Hobbit the halflings were learned in some of the high speech of the elves.> -the player of Fre' "Let my knowlage go" -Fre' Reply |
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an' the elven girl that we took in when she was orphened who learned s'kra from us, and who i learned ilithic from? the number of times i had my roleplaying cramped because i couldn't actually understand the ilithic being spoken and she wasn't there to help with the translations are uncountable. i see absolutely no reason why i can't learn 2 or 3 languages. i don't want to learn them all, that would be silly, and honestly, i wouldn't seek out a group of prydaens just to listen to them. their sheer elitist attitudes tend to annoy me, and most people who don't play prydaens (often for the same reason that i wouldn't try to find a bunch of 'em to listen to) i'm not saying all prydaen are elitist by any means, i've got several good prydaen friends. your reasons for not wanting languages to be learned are coming across from a very "i don't want you speaking prydaen simply because you're not prydaen" tone. not hard to see where i'm gettin an elitist vibe here, which i find completely silly in every way, shape, and form in regards to my ability to learn your language at least to the extent of understanding it. you wanna get down to that, let's take a look at george lucas' take on this. when han solo is talking to greedo or jaba the hut or chewbaca or R2-D2, what happens? they each speak their own language but understand the others. if that's the compromise that must be come to for prydaen because of anatomical constrictions, so be it, i just don't want every language other than s'kra and common to be completely off-limits to me for even roleplaying purposes such as trading in foreign places or meeting someone who doesn't know common (i've met 1 or two people who roleplayed this quite well) Jaebom --miffed Reply |
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>>In the game, they gave people languages so the races could roleplay and feel more seperate, and common so players could function with one another. How's about this: They gave people langauges so they could learn more about their own race and create a feeling of kinship with members of their own race rather than exclude other races. Having the occasional odd Elothean walk in a be able to understand you as you speak Gorbesh wouldn't destroy your race as you know it nor hamper your RP, in fact you'd have to be extra careful of what you say just in case someone who can understand you is around (ever see the episode of Sienfeld with the Korean Nail place?). In fact in the end it could only support RP. My character is someone who might have been born Elothean and speak Gerganshune (sp) but she spent most of her childhood in Arthe Dale. You're telling me in all that time she didn't pick up a WORD of Olvi? And does it make sense that a character who RPs being the foster child of member of another race is born with the inherent knowledge of how to speak their own race's langauge? SC and player of Reply |
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what SC said. Jaebom --elitism=bad Reply |
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Does anyone know the official DR point of view on this matter? It would seem to me that Simu wishes different races to have their own separate language at their disposal, and to argue with each other trying to create justifications to thwart this is arguing a moot point all around. It is what it is, and chances are its not going to change. Jaebom, I would like to reassure you personally that when you are in the company of prydaens (you sure seem to have a thing about prydaens, ya know) and said prydaens are speaking their native tongue, they are probably not talking about you. No need to get all paranoid thinking that all the chuckles and remarks are at your expense. Its certainly human nature to think that. Still, We aren't. I hope that you knowing this might cause you a little peace of mind. I have Humm speak in his native tongue for RP reasons. It is just more natural for him to do so. In Vreeland Pryde meetings, we speak Prydaenese, because we do wish a certain sense of privacy and community. Speaking Prydaenese helps us achieve this. For you to ask others to whisper entire racial meetings for your comfort is a little selfish, I feel. If we invited you, we would speak Common out of respect, but other than that, no. Also, unless we start meeting in places that we can directly control who may be present, we cannot make anyone leave. Where we meet, anyone can come. Do we want them there? Not really. Can we make them leave for our sake? No. If we speak Prydaenese, problem solved, except for a few paranoid minds that instantly think that we are joking about them. I suggest you "get over it". About spies, heh, sorry, but you'll have to figure out a way to spy for yourself, my friend. An example would be Thangor who try as he might the GM's would not change him into a prydaen, and as a result could never speak Prydaenese, but he still found ways to be planting spies in the pryde to cause us grief with. I'm sure he still had fun with it, even thought it sure caused us headaches. I mean, he could sure rant on about us in private, but let anyone say anything about him, and boy did we hear about it. Needless to say, he wasn't important enough to us to be spying on him, but I digress. Elitism is not bad. It just is. It can be good, bad or neither, and its all dependent upon opinions. Just because your opinion is that Elitism is bad does not make it true. Tell the Green Beret that their "Elitism" is bad. Tell it to the Marines. You won't be received too well I assure you, and I do hope you see my point here. Being ex Marine Corps, I understand the good points of Elitism. It gives a person a reason to rise above what they feel is mundane or ordinary. Elitism should not be confused with Egotism, and my opinion is that you seem to be doing so. About finding uses for your scholarship, I can understand your points, but as I noted above, if Simu isn't going to go along with it there is no sense wasting your words and wisdoms with it. If you're having fun with it though, please don't let my interjections stop you. Michael, aka Humm "Proud Ears" Breaux Reply |
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Respectfully Humm, <<Does anyone know the official DR point of view on this matter? It would seem to me that Simu wishes different races to have their own separate language at their disposal, and to argue with each other trying to create justifications to thwart this is arguing a moot point all around. It is what it is, and chances are its not going to change.>> If the GMs held the same train of thought as you do, we would not even have Prydaen. Food for thought. <<For you to ask others to whisper entire racial meetings for your comfort is a little selfish, I feel. If we invited you, we would speak Common out of respect, but other than that, no. Also, unless we start meeting in places that we can directly control who may be present, we cannot make anyone leave. Where we meet, anyone can come. Do we want them there? Not really. Can we make them leave for our sake? No. If we speak Prydaenese, problem solved, except for a few paranoid minds that instantly think that we are joking about them. I suggest you "get over it".>> Frankly, this is totally OOC. It's an OOC concern about your characters actions IG. If I want a private conversation in the real world, I don't simply start speaking in Spanish. Or Romanian, even. I go and find somewhere private and hold my conversation there. If you remove the chance of being overheard, you remove the risk of being overheard. I'm sorry if it "cramps your style" to have to go inside and lock a door. Cry me a river. <<Tell the Green Beret that their "Elitism" is bad. Tell it to the Marines. You won't be received too well I assure you, and I do hope you see my point here.>> The Marines are elite only because they hold themselves above everyone else. Speaking as a soldier here, they're fulla hot air. ::wink:: The difference between SpecOps and the Marines is ANYONE can be a Marine. To earn a bed or a berth in SpecOps requires service and expertise. Further to the point, you'd be hard pressed to say every enlisted man doesn't have a chance to be a Ranger/SEAL if they're willing to put in the time. You can be recommended for SpecOps by your XO, or you can work your can off and apply. The chance to TRY remains constant. That's all people are asking for here. A chance to learn a language and TRY to use it properly. For all you know, Humans may end up being able to understand Prydaenese exactly, but be totally unable to enunciate properly in Prydaenese 'cause it's just a series of grunts and bellows (kind of like Han Solo trying to speak Shyriiwook). <<If you're having fun with it though, please don't let my interjections stop you.>> I doubt anyone intends to let you. In SpecOps, you learn anything worth fighting for is worth fighting for tooth and nail (and you learn how to use your teeth and nails to fight for it, har!). Loq (ROR) Reply |
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<<The Marines are elite only because they hold themselves above everyone else. Speaking as a soldier here, they're fulla hot air. ::wink:: The difference between SpecOps and the Marines is ANYONE can be a Marine.>> What the hell ever. When you actually know what in the hell you are talking about come on back, till then take that statement and shove it. jimi Reply |
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<<The Marines are elite only because they hold themselves above everyone else. Speaking as a soldier here, they're fulla hot air. ::wink:: The difference between SpecOps and the Marines is ANYONE can be a Marine.>> What the hell ever. When you actually know what in the hell you are talking about come on back, till then take that statement and shove it. jimi Most eloquently put Jimi. Back on to the language discussion though. I could very easily see Human (and other human framed races) learning to understand the languages of the Skra/Rak/Pryds but not entiredly being able to speak them as there are certain and pronounced biological differences. Personally I would do something like a new language every 100 ranks of Scholarship or so. The Unknown PS Anyone can <<TRY>> to be a Marine not everyone makes it. I've been told the wash out rate is about 45% of recruits but I remember quite clearly in my basic training group we started with 186 recruits (6 full platoons) and by the time it was all said and done only 26 of us graduated. Reply |
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Are you Prydaen all so arrogant to think everyone in Elanthia wants to learn Prydaenese just to listen in on your meetings? Sheesh, you act like the world revolves around you in this folder, it's gotten disturbing, and at the same time highly amusing. You have nothing constructive to say anymore, merely whining that you want to be able to talk to each other in private, whereas many people want to learn other languages for roleplay purposes. I suggest you Prydaen take your own advice and not take everything so seriously, because frankly you're going rabid. (Excepting Humm) I shall reiterate several points, maybe you'll actually read them. *is doubting it* Then I'm gonna go off and have a good laugh. 1) When languages came out, players immediately asked if there would be ways to learn new languages, Solomon (I think, it might've been another GM) responded that they were looking into it, but it'd probably cost large sums of money to do so. In any case, the response was positive. 2) Not everyone wants to learn Prydaenese. I only do because of Laelia. You are the ones being paranoid that people are going to learn it just to spite you. 3) There are many IC reasons to learn another language, such as adopted children, married couples, and many many more. 4) Arguments that "I don't like it cause I want to talk in private" are silly and OOC. I don't care one bit about whatever meetings you guys have. I know where you meet, but I don't care. Neither does most of the realms. Again, stop being paranoid. I don't expect you to "whisper entire meetings for my comfort" cause I don't care. I was simply pointing out that's the only way to be truly private. 5) Elitism is bad. There's nothing wrong with being better than other people, unless you flaunt it. An elite troop does not neccesarily have to be what is generally considered "elitist". It simply means they're the best. [This really has nothing to do with the discussion, but oh well] 6) You are correct, Humm, if Simu doesn't want to go along with something, it's pointless. However, it is unfortunately typical of Prydaen posters to try to stifle any discussion which they feel they don't like, even when the GMs haven't interjected an opinion. And even when they do, opinions can be changed. Many things that would "never" happen have indeed happened. Never is not forever here in Elanthia. Highly amused, Toren Sunreign-Jade-Stone, S'kra Gopher Reply |
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Realism vs. Gameplay From the IC perspective, I see no reason why some races couldn't learn the languages of some other races. From the OOC perspective, it becomes a game-play issue. Given the high amount of scholarship and/or other restrictions, I doubt it will affect anyone to a huge degree, while giving a few people a real enhancement to their role play. I believe someday we'll see some form of a language learning system in DR. However, I would like to cast my vote for "can't learn other languages on the basis of game-play." If I had to back that up with a reason, I guess that makes me part of the "elitist" camp; if I'm speaking my racial language, I only want others of the same race to understand it. As a halfling-primary player, I actually think anyone who chose Olvio, ie Starsha, as a second language gets bonus points in my book ;-) However, I speak more for the Elves and Humans which I presume would be the most common second languages. In a crowded area, 2 elves talking to each other would almost certainly be overheard by a non-elf. This to me degrades the concept of a racial language... from a game-play point of view. --aka Mykk Reply |
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I really hate this entire thread but I am going to put up a few statements one the last post as it deals with the Prydaen language being a source of conflict here it seems. Number one <<I suggest you Prydaen take your own advice and not take everything so seriously, because frankly you're going rabid.>> I suggest you take a look at some of your previous post in this thread and practice what you are attempting to preach. Number two <<Not everyone wants to learn Prydaenese.>> This I agree with, if anyone wanted to come and listen in on a prydaen meeting all they would have to do is roll up a prydaen and sit him in the tree. Personally I would love to learn gorbesh. Number threee <<There are many IC reasons to learn another language, such as adopted children, married couples, and many many more.>> Total agreement Number four <<Arguments that "I don't like it cause I want to talk in private" are silly and OOC.>> Total disagreement. The desire to have a private meeting is in no way silly or OOC. Number five <<Elitism is bad.>. No its not. People are bad, the ideal of Elitism is good. Number six <<However, it is unfortunately typical of Prydaen posters to try to stifle any discussion which they feel they don't like>> What you are trying to do here is take a situation that degraded over a month of posting and condense it into a completly out of context statement. On the whole the typical prydaen poster does NOT attempt to stifle another poster. Are we very head strong. Certainly. But don't come here and use that as a tool in which to bastardize the typical prydaen poster. Number seven <<Sheesh, you act like the world revolves around you in this folder, it's gotten disturbing, and at the same time highly amusing. You have nothing constructive to say anymore, merely whining that you want to be able to talk to each other in private, whereas many people want to learn other languages for roleplay purposes.>> Few thing in that statement. Number one yes the entire world revolves arround us. Number two If you don't think what we have to say it constructive don't read it. Number three, you speak of roleplay then expect a prydaen not to act prydaen, which way do you want it? Number eight. Eight! Eight I forgot what eight was for! (For those of you that weren't out of diapers in the musical revolution of the eighties this will have no meaning for you. Violent Femmes forever!) Number nine For someone that seems to be getting irritated on someone posting critically of taking to seriously this thread and many many others Toren you need to take a few Xanax and try again tomorrow. I think the languages idea is a great one and I would love to see it implimented. But what you do is to take any post that is in anyway against something you believe in that is posted by a Prydaen and twist it into some sort of racial bigotary on the Prydaens part. Haven't you been able to figure out by now that yes, most of the "old skhool" prydaens are on the stand offish side. That isn't being detrimental to the role play of the game, it helps it. If you read the post on the Prydaen boards and on the others most of us post as our characters would reply. If you don't like that don't read them, it is as simple as that. Now for a direct statement on the languages thing. Those that have dedicated themselves to the furthur development of there intelliect (ie especially the bard, empath, and the moon mage) I can see no reason why they would be unable to learn furthur languages. However I would say that the scholarship involved in such an endeavor would need to be prohibitivly high, and I am not talking 100 ranks here. Hell I am a barbarian and I have almost 100 in scholarship. 150ish to would be a where I would put the area of a mental primary guild and 250 plus for for the more physically orientented guilds. *THWAP*, to all of you for making me actually think about this insane thread ~Ternith Reply |
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I must also reply to Toren's post. Firstly, generalization and steriotyping are much worse then Eliticism. Secondly, if I'm not mistaken... wait a second, I'll find it. Here we go: >>I don't expect you to "whisper entire meetings for my comfort" now can I point you to the following: >>So go someplace truly private or whisper both made by the same poster, on the same topic. Hypocrisy is also worse then Elitism. Thirdly, by this quote: >>Are you Prydaen all so arrogant to think everyone in Elanthia wants to learn Prydaenese just to listen in on your meetings? Wait till Laelia hears about this.... She's been to her fair share of Vreeland meetings, and guess what! Speaks Prydaenese. Nice things to say about your wife..... Now. If you actually thought before ya wrote, and tried to get educated, you would know that whenever there is a non-prydaen present, we assign translators, and sometimes, when we like them, we actually speak common. Go figure! And on a side note, no Prydaens have said anything about against learning new languages, we have just pointed out some factors that might not make it possible, and asked if such a thing came to pass, that a high level of scholarship be required, of course with the exception of a couple of stray posts, since we are Prydaens and Elitists on top of that. Ecoles "El Furro" Dantas Reply |
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>>This to me degrades the concept of a racial language... from a game-play point of view. Once again, that's only true if you take the stance that GMs created langauges to seperate the races rather than bring members of the same race closer together. >>In a crowded area, 2 elves talking to each other would almost certainly be overheard by a non-elf. I personally believe that if you are saying something that is meant for only a specific person's ears then whisper or go someplace private. I think being nasty and/or racist in another langauge because you think someone can't understand you is horrible and should damn well have the risk of backfiring on you. I mean think about it RP standpoint. You're telling me that with all the War and whatnot between Elves and Humans did not a single one of them learned each other's langauge for espianoge purposes? That when the Dragon Priests were running around killing non-Skra, other races didn't learn how to speak Skra to save their skin? With how xenophobic Pyrdaens are in general not a one of them ever was paranoid enough to learn a different langauge just to make sure no one was plotting against them? Langauge should be used as an RP tool, not an exlucivity (if that's a word) tool. Sure hold meetings with members of your own race and speak your own langauge all you want, but I personally think it would be MUCH cooler for say Toren to hide and listen in on an Elothean gathering as himself rather than roll up a random Elothean just for the sake of spying. I consider that an OOC solution to an IC issue. And wouldn't it be spiffy if you could continue to hold a meeting in your racial tounge despite the fact that you have graciously invited a non-<insertrace> because they so much respect for your people that they decided to learn YOUR langauge rather than forcing an entire roomful of people to reduce their langauge to the ever base Common for just one person? And I really wish I could find the post, but sware on my right arm that a little while back a GM said something about working on a laungauge system. I'm pretty sure I remember jumping out of my chair and started singing "I am gonna learn Olvio! I am gonna learn Olvio!" But then again I am insane as the whole as jumping up and dancing thing just proved, heh. SC and player of Reply |
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<? With how xenophobic Pyrdaens are in general not a one of them ever was paranoid enough to learn a different langauge just to make sure no one was plotting against them?> Not that I am actually a member of a pryde, hehe, but like I said I would love to learn Gorbesh or Rakash, and not to be able to go over to there homes for chatting, tea and crumpets. ~Ternith the scholarship minded Barbarian Reply |
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>>Not that I am actually a member of a pryde, hehe, but like I said I would love to learn Gorbesh or Rakash, and not to be able to go over to there homes for chatting, tea and crumpets. Heh, yeah I know not all Pyrdeans want to claw the face off of non-Pyrdeans. I was making one of those totally evil gernealization things. If you learn how to speak Elothean one day I'll invite ya over for a cup of warm rice wine and some raw tuna sainyuso rolls. Heck, come on over anyways. :) ~Celebrant Starsha Chracco, and player of Reply |
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<Heh, yeah I know not all Pyrdeans want to claw the face off of non-Pyrdeans.> HEHE, Actually you could lump me in the generalization. Want to learn Elothean to listen in on the House of GreyStorm to..well basically kill them all (not sure if they are under the same leadership as before if not I would like to speak with the new house leader) and listen to the Rakash to...well not kill all (tail curls Bractos) of them but kill some of them (nudges Palefox), but i'll come down and chat with you just because you are Starsha and I have heard alot of good things about you. Just please keep what ever wine you mentioned to yourself and i'll bring some prydaen bloodwine. ~Ternith Reply |
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>>but i'll come down and chat with you just because you are Starsha and I have heard alot of good things about you. Awwww stop, I'm blushing! :-p >>Want to learn Elothean to listen in on the House of GreyStorm to..well basically kill them all (not sure if they are under the same leadership as before if not I would like to speak with the new house leader) Well unfortunetely we've sorta drifted apart again (too many houses not enough time ::twitch::) Last I heard Summerr had taken over and Iron had resigned, but that was awhile ago. SC Reply |
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Well if Iron was in charge of them the leadership has changed from when they attacked the Elder. If the new head of the House of the Storm would contact me I would appreciate it. ~Ternith Reply |
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Personally, I'd love to be able to learn other languages, and I do think it would add to the RP, even for us elitest prydaens. Of course, it should be very difficult to learn, but possible. People worry about spies, but just think how fun it would be to discover a spy and oust them, or if you're laughing at some other race it would add RP if every once in a while they might understand you (ala Sienfelds Korean beauty salon episode). But really, languages ARE there to sepperate the races more then bring them together, there should be more races like us elitest prydaens making race mean something besides a few special verbs and stat bonuses. I mean seriously, elves and dwarves getting married and adopting gnome kids? What about skra and togs being buddies forgetting all about the history of slavery? Well, I'm drifting, but anyway, I think it should be possible to learn languages, but very hard, with perhaps certain races getting bonuses to certain languages, i.e. prydaen-rakash, skra-tog, halflings with all since they always shared a culture with other races, elothian being very hard for any race to learn, etc. ~Daergoth, a prydaen not against learning the furless tongues Reply |
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Heh, figures as soon as I post and finish my coffee, I think of more. What I would like to see is Scholarship being a req, but not the way it's learned, you would need to take lessons from a member of that race or something. Maybe 10 sepperate 1 hour long lessons, after the first lesson, you see people speaking actual messages instead of just speaking they're language, with 1/10 of the message correct, and the rest randomly garbled, each lesson would increase the percent that's ungarbled by 1/10 untill it's all understood...perhaps anything spoken in the language being learned would be garbles similarly, or perhaps a sepperate lesson set would be required. ~Daergoth says in prydaenese."djslh aw;o8 owej;l owij/ oqwi4u l;i ;oair jkrh ;." P.S. if you knew prydaenese you would understand that, hehe Reply |
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>>But really, languages ARE there to sepperate the races more then bring them together, there should be more races like us elitest prydaens making race mean something besides a few special verbs and stat bonuses. You should meet some hard core Elothean players, they put Pyrdeans to shame <g>. Race is all about RP and the way you act. It about doing your research, studing the customs, paying attention to the rules the GMs provide and just being overall consistant. Even if you play a "rebel" you should know what you are rebelling against. IE A Pyrdean who kills a Pride member better damn well be ready to face whatever punishment the Elders deal out and an Elothean who insists that the race is a group of Half-Breeds better be ready to face the fact that they will be laughed at. Just choosing a specific race while you're in the CM does not automatically make you a member of that race socially. Culture and race are very seperate animals. Starsha takes care of a young Rakash girl who lost her parents at a young age. While Starsha tried to educate the girl on her heritage, the child will end up being more culturally Elothean than Rakash because Starsha is so traditionally Elothean. And you better believe Starsha's Olvi upbringing shows through from time to time despite her best efforts (ask the people at Ythik and Kerrian's wedding hehe). And langauge isn't a part of race, it has nothing to do with genes or blood or anything, it is a part of culture. And culture, being the intangible mass it is, is something that can be shared. ~Celebrant Starsha Chracco Reply |
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It's a little complicated and is probably impossible but I'll give it a go (and thanks to Daergoth for a little inspiration). Langauges would based on a tier system with racial modifiers giving bonuses to some races learning other races langauges. Humans, of course, would be the middle ground. Tier 1 would require 100 ranks of scholarship to learn, Tier 2 would require 150, Tier 3 would require 200. Tiers are based on (a) reclusivness of race and/or (b) difficulty of language. The tier system for a human would be as follows: Tier 1: Gamgweth, Olvi, Toggish, Hakish (I waill never spell that right) Tier 2: Rakash, Gorbesh, S'kra, Ilithic Tier 3: Gerenshuge, Pyrdaenese So in order for a human to learn all the langauges, he would need to have a whopping 1700 ranks in Scholarship. Anyone who can accompish that deserves to learn them all <g> Racial modifiers: S'kras would be able to learn Toggish with only 75 ranks of scholarship. Togs would get S'kra knocked down to a Tier 1 langauge. Pyrdaens would get Rakash as a Tier 1 language and Rakash would get Pyrdaen as a Tier 2 langauge. Due to high wisdom/intelligence, Elotheans and Gnomes could chose ANY langauge at their first 100 ranks, after that it follows the normal system. Elves and Dwarves (Dwarfs?) would get a bonus to Gamgweth, learning it at 75 ranks. After you have enough ranks, you find a member of the race who's langauge you want to learn and they begin to teach you (kinda the same way horse stuff is taught). You would need a total of 5 one hour lessons (with our without the same teacher) in order to learn a language. At any point before the lesson is completed you can change your mind and learn a different language, but that sets your timer back to 0. ~Celebrant Starsha Chracco and the player who is just trying to avoid schoolwork hehehe Reply |
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Very good idea except for this part <<Due to high wisdom/intelligence, Elotheans and Gnomes could chose ANY langauge at their first 100 ranks, after that it follows the normal system.>> Besides that two thumbs up. ~Ternith Reply |
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Heh, trying to make that those Intelligence/Wisdom bonuses count for something, since Elotheans and Gnomes both get shafted on encumbrance penalties :-( How's about this: Elotheans learn S'kra and Ilithic as Tier 1 langauges (Due to the fact that those Dragon Priests are so nearby and Shard is in Ilithi so one would think we would hear Ilithic enough) and Gnomes get to learn any langauge at 100 ranks and then proceed normally. (throw the little fellas a bone, ya can already kill `em by sitting on em <g>) SC Reply |
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Oh! I left a part out! I'm also one of those people who believe that Bards should get something spiffy when it comes to understanding langauges of other races. In order to speak a langauge a bard would have to leanr under the normal system, but when it comes to understanding langauges I propose giving them an Enchant (fairly high circle, mid 30s to ealy 40s) that allows them to understand any langauge. That's not speaking, just listening. Would be helpful for them when it comes to translating songs and stories. SC Reply |
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On the bard thing. For that incrediable of an enchante I would say that would need to be more like a 60th to 70th level enchante rather than a 30th to 40th, and would require a specific rank in both vocal music and musical lore. ~Ternith Reply |
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by 60th or 70th, it would be virtually useless because we'd already KNOW HALF OF THEM ANYWAY!!! and let's look at this realistically...how many bards have you heard of reaching levels like that? i'll tell ya this, if there are more than 25 of 'em out there already, i'll be surprised. i've also got a problem with this being an enchante. the time it takes to get one coded and tested is ludicrous. it's not like onna your spells where they announce it and you've got it in 6 months, our last working enchante was something like 36 months back, and before that it was a couple years again. another problem with that is the fact that alot of bards stagnate for one reason or another yet still play regularly and get unreal ammounts of scholarship and teaching for a mid 20 to mid 30 circle character. there's also the time it takes the majority of us to get to that point. i've seen people get to 30th in 2 months, but i doubt how honestly this was acheived. a more realistic time-frame with constant training is 5 to 6 months, which is nothing out of the ordinary, but taking a year to hit 30th is by no means uncommon. 60th is generally concidered unreachable by the average player. they simply don't have the time nor the patience to make it there. mech and music lores aren't fun to train when you need as much as a bard would (i'm not sure on exact numbers, i stopped caring about a year ago). most of our non-enchante related abilities are based on the levels are skills and atributes are at, not how many circles we've got. throw voice is entirely skill based, but needing 1000 some odd ranks of general lore is a bit rediculous for a vocal ability considering little of those ranks would come from music (teaching, scholarship, and mech would be a large chunk of it) gah...damnit, lost my point somewhere in the ramblings....any bards out there care to clarify a bit? i'm sure one of ya knows me well enough to know what the hell i was trying to say there...anyway, i'm all for bards 'n' traders, and maybe moonies, but to a lesser extent, getting a bonus in some way to learning languages...maybe just listening to them, but speaking as well as listening would be far more useful for roleplaying reasons, especially to traders. oh yeah...another thing about the enchante, the ability to understand all languages would just be a bit unfair in many ways, and i'm sure onna the people with the more egotistical form of elitism goin on could point a few out (that better? and i ain't paranoid about you talking about me while i'm in the room. please note that any references to such things should be concidered utter satire with a sprinkling of sarcasm and cynicism) enough rambling, try ta keep the flames to a minimum, and yes, i'm aware i've done a few myself, don't bother pointing it out, i'm tryin ta keep my own to a minimum too Jaebom --still no good IC reason for not allowing the learning of languages Reply |
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<<how many bards have you heard of reaching levels like that? i'll tell ya this, if there are more than 25 of 'em out there already, i'll be surprised.>> Exactly my point, it shouldn't be a cake walk to get a skill like that. <<another problem with that is the fact that alot of bards stagnate for one reason or another yet still play regularly and get unreal ammounts of scholarship and teaching for a mid 20 to mid 30 circle character. >> What number do you see as unreal, if it is unnatrually high I might be inclined to agree with you, but I for one don't really see the reasoning behind rewarding a "stagnate" player with any skill much less one that they could put to real use. <<60th is generally concidered unreachable by the average player.>> mmmm I think you have been hanging arround the wrong people. ~Ternith who hopes none of that is viewed as a flame, wasn't my intent..this time hehe Reply |
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<<60th is generally concidered unreachable by the average player.>> >mmmm I think you have been hanging arround the wrong people. You've obviously never trained a high circle bard. -Fre' Reply |
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they stagnate circle-wise, not skill-wise average player of a bard bards get their last thing besides titles at 36th, why would anyone wanna go higher than that other than titles? 60th is a circle rarely striven for, and generally concidered to have no point. the lore between 36th and 60th is also very prohibitous. that's why it's generally thought of as unreachable Jaebom --better? Reply |
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<<You've obviously never trained a high circle bard.>> You obviously are in the wrong guild if you think that giving up on your progression is a bad thing. I don't mean to sound rude but if it is that terrible then what are you still doing in it? I still don't see where anyone would believe that they should be entitled to something when they stagnate. That would be like going to the barb folder and saying, you know what I am bored with circling can someone just give me Dragon Dance cause have lots of mech and hiding. I have trained up a bard to 30th+ and another to I think he is like 17th or 18th and was brought into the guild by one of the best bardess there ever has been, Natole. But that didn't change that fact that when I got to that point I came to the relization that bard was completly a waste of time, so I made the switch and you know what I was right. Now don't get me wrong here that is just my humble (not) opinion. But this is getting way off topic. I still feel that a level of 60 on this non existant skill isn't to much to ask for. <<better?>> Better explaniation but still not (in my opinion) a valid reason on giving someone something they haven't earned. ~Ternith Reply |
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Again you haven't trained a high circle bard and stuck with it and waited for something useful to come out of the once a year meetings and the insane amount of lore we know. Natole was (and is sometimes still, in my opinion) a good teacher and bard, but she hasn't reached sixty has she? And even if she has (I haven't asked her recently since her appearance if more and more rare) what would it matter, she would still have the same enchantes and abilities that the 36th circle bards have. Bards DESERVE abilities that require the ranks they have already aquired. >I came to the relization that bard was completly a waste of time, so I made the switch and you know what I was right You we're right, about not being cut out to be a bard. All the bards I know stay in the guild for one reason, because they love the guild and alot of those great folks I have had the privaledge of knowing have left the guild in light of stagnation for the same reason you did obviously. (Danner, Giona...to name a few). So (please don't take this rudely) don't lecture me on why I am still member of my guild and don't tell me being a bard is a waste of time. Who is going to write the songs and the stories that time remebers you by? Well it won't be me, because your history doesn't concern me one bit. -Fre' "Sensing some flute envy" Reply |
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>In order to speak a langauge a bard would have to leanr under the normal system, but when it comes to understanding langauges I propose giving them an Enchant (fairly high circle, mid 30s to ealy 40s) Moon Mages have a planned spell called Voices which I believe isn't one of the scrapped spells (if I'm wrong, do correct me please). >Requires Seer's Sense, Hypnotize. A limited form of ESP, Voices allows the caster to temporarily understand and speak languages that he doesn't actually know. Tamiera Reply |
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<<Moon Mages have a planned spell called Voices which I believe isn't one of the scrapped spells (if I'm wrong, do correct me please).>> Rigby made some comment a few months back about Voices, I can't remember if he scrapped the spell outright, but I know I was dissapointed to learn that he wouldn't be releasing the spell any time soon (if it was scrapped or just a very low priority I can't remember). Reply |
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Heh, if languages are going to be taught, make teaching them a skill specific to the teachers of elanthia. Have a scholarship requirement for the learner, as mentioned before, and the teachers would be Bards primarily since they are the most worldly, empaths and traders secondary (the lore primes). Make the ability to teach a language based on ranks of teaching. Like, to teach a language you must have at least 300 ranks of teaching. Just because you can speak a language does not mean you have the skills needed to teach it to another person.. it would make sense that you'd need a good deal of skill to help someone learn (make that teaching skill mean something). There's no need to make it circle based at all. It's the teaching and scholarship skills that are important. The closer to impossible it is to learn a language, the happier i'll be. I still think that languages help define races, and it would be taking away identity from the more unique races to please the more mundane races. -Kitrinx Reply |
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This would normally be where I started in flaming someone due to obviously stupid statements but I am not going to do that. I am just going to comment I swear. <<Bards DESERVE abilities that require the ranks they have already aquired.>> This is your problem right here. No one deserves anything. People EARN things. <<what would it matter, she would still have the same enchantes and abilities that the 36th circle bards have.>> That is like saying a 36th level barb using wolverine would have the same power of that dance that a 58th level barb has using it. Try again, your wrong. Here is where you think you need to get a bit nasty so I hope the board monitor cuts me some slack. I didn't start it this time, I was being nice. <<You we're right, about not being cut out to be a bard.>> Duh, way to repeat what I said..I guess. <<So (please don't take this rudely) don't lecture me on why I am still member of my guild and don't tell me being a bard is a waste of time.>> I didn't. Try using that scholarship a bit more and reading. I plainly stated that was my opinion. I only assumed you DESERVE the right to know what that meant. I'll be more forthcoming next time in explaining it. <<Who is going to write the songs and the stories that time remebers you by? Well it won't be me, because your history doesn't concern me one bit.>> Most people call it an oral tradition. You know that type of history passed verbally from pryde to pryde? I'll count on my elders thank you very much not some guild that prides themselves on seeing who can out drink who. But thanks in advance for the promise that you won't take that history and bastardize it. 'presh. ~Ternith, who really wasn't that bad this time. ::pats his self on the back:: Reply |
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Oh yea. *THWAP* Ternith Reply |
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>*THWAP* Ouch, way to injure my pride. Since you obviously don't have any valid points about anything why don't you go back to the conflicts folder and practice flaming. >No one deserves anything. People EARN things. So all the ranks that we have EARNED are what pointless? Maybe you keep your brain in your tail. >That is like saying a 36th level barb using wolverine would have the same power of that dance that a 58th level barb has using it. Try again, your wrong. Actually Resolve (the only offensive enchante worth anything right now) and Wolverine are not similar at all, don't even try to compare them. >I'll count on my elders thank you very much not some guild that prides themselves on seeing who can out drink who. And yes I can outdrink you. -Fre' "May the record reflect I ownz you" Reply |
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"May the record reflect I ownz you" In your dreams deary, go back to your bottle. ~Ternith Reply |
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>In your dreams deary, go back to your bottle. If you can't take the heat, unplug the heater and turn your respirator back on grand-pa. -the player of Fre' "Words can be as leathal as a sword to the throat" - Ancient Bardic Saying Reply |
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"Words can be as leathal as a sword to the throat" - Ancient Bardic Saying Let me know when you are planning on using some of them. ~Ternith Reply |
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>You notice a husky dwarf looking up at the last post and chuckling to himself. Sorry must have been speaking Haakish. -Fre' "Ignorance is bliss, and bliss is your middle name" Reply |
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<Oh yea. *THWAP* Ternith > Gods..why not keep that nonsense in the Prydaen folder where it's obviously thought of as "cute" or "funny" by the three or four people who post there? Here it simply comes off as immature and moronic. Reply |
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Thats funny KRAZYANNEE, because I remember so many more people then that taking your points and ripping them to shreds on that whole thread you and the two others kept going on about. Thwapping started because you just couldn't stop posting about it and were tired of explaining it repeatedly to you. Just keep to yourself like you said you were going to and stop trying to start stupid conflicts. Dragoonseal Reply |
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Actually it was funny. -Fre' "Thwapping?...lets keep it real folks" Reply |
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<Thats funny KRAZYANNEE, because I remember so many more people then that taking your points and ripping them to shreds on that whole thread you and the two others kept going on about. Thwapping started because you just couldn't stop posting about it and were tired of explaining it repeatedly to you. Just keep to yourself like you said you were going to and stop trying to start stupid conflicts. Dragoonseal> And this has what, exactly, to do with how ridiculous and childish the "thwapping" is? Oh, wait. I forgot. You are incapable of rational, mature discussion. When things don't go your way, you just fall back to *Thwap.* Yeah, that's a LOT better than a good discussion. Gods how I pity you... Reply |
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>And this has what, exactly, to do with how ridiculous and childish the "thwapping" is? Oh, wait. I forgot. You are incapable of rational, mature discussion. When things don't go your way, you just fall back to *Thwap.* Yeah, that's a LOT better than a good discussion. I agree, it is a lot better =)). Because after attempting to make you understand too many times to count, and even the GMs telling you that *gasp* you're wrong, you still don't get it, so by that point we're rather just thwap you, made rattle the brain around a little and see if something seeps into it. Dragoonseal Reply |
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<I agree, it is a lot better =)). Because after attempting to make you understand too many times to count, and even the GMs telling you that *gasp* you're wrong, you still don't get it, so by that point we're rather just thwap you, made rattle the brain around a little and see if something seeps into it. Dragoonseal> *sighs and speaks slowly so you can maybe grasp the point* Again, this has exactly what to do with the discussion at hand? We were all enjoying a good debate on a very interesting topic, and it gets invaded by the *thwapping* contingent. Just grow up and get over yourself already. Reply |
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i say don't flame and 3 hours later the entire thread decays into a conflict thread!!! what's wrong with you people?! you prydaens have an excuse, you can't help it, all that fur itchin ya under the clothes you've taken to wearing since arriving here, but the rest of you aughta be used to it!! could we maybe get back on topic? i did have some stuff to say before i started wading through the flames, but have since forgotten what it was. damned short attention span... Jaebom --i earned my ranks of scholarship and teaching, it ain't my fault quarter staff is rediculously hard to train (and it would seem broken too, i shouldn't be able to hit harder and more often with 10 ranks fewer in medium blunt, should i?) Reply |
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Heh, you guys care way too much about something as inconsequential as a proposed language learning system.
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>Again, this has exactly what to do with the discussion at hand? We were all enjoying a good debate on a very interesting topic, and it gets invaded by the *thwapping* contingent. Just grow up and get over yourself already. Say it as slow as you like, it doesnt make you right. Yes we were, and still are having a fun debate, the thwapping comment was a humorous one, which went sailing waaay over your head, because you didn't notice that. You apparently don't understand humor, so desided to try and make an arguemnt about it (stop doing that, we're tired of your pointless arguements), any specific reason why you felt the need to try and make a conflict? There was no reason for it at all. Kindly stop posting and let us continue the debate =). Dragoonseal Reply |
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>>Again, this has exactly what to do with the discussion at hand? We were all enjoying a good debate on a very interesting topic, and it gets invaded by the *thwapping* contingent. Just grow up and get over yourself already. How annoying you have to be? GEEZ, KRAZYANNEE. We go through the same stuff again. You started this tangent, by saying Thwaping was infantile. Dammit. ya annoy me Ecoles Reply |
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>How annoying you have to be? Hey how about we stop flaming for a moment and get our grammar straight. Afterwards lets care for a moment that your annoyed, and then move on. >You started this tangent, by saying Thwaping was infantile. Dammit. ya annoy me. <adds in a period So anyone have any other opinions why there should or should not be a system to learn language? I have down these opinions so far: Why should we have one?: 1. Role-play factor (growing up adopted, bards/scholars) 2. Skill usage (Scholarship, teaching) 3. Something to work twards Why shouldn't we have one?: 1. Loss of racial ability 2. Would allow people to listen in on private conversations 3. It wouldn't be possible to work the mechanics Please add to both the lists. And in regards to an earlier post. >On the bard thing. >For that incrediable of an enchante I would say that would need to be more like a 60th to 70th level enchante rather than a 30th to 40th, and would require a specific rank in both vocal music and musical lore. >~Ternith Maybe you should read post 1060 again, and afterwards you won't need much help removing your foot from your mouth. Nobody even mentioned an enchante, which anyways would make absolutely no sense at all. >A Bard begins chanting in a low voice, you suddenly realize you know how to speak Illithic! The old bard smiles an odd smile and you feel an strange sense of calm wash over you. >thwap bard >You find yourself in a state of enlightenment, where you realize what a dolt you are for having tried thwaping him. -Fre' Reply |
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>>I still think that languages help define races, and it would be taking away identity from the more unique races to please the more mundane races. Ummm...what defines a DR race as unique or mundane? Each one of them has a very unique history all of their own and are very interesting to play. Some of them are a little bit better devloped than others, but all of them are very different. In fact I play several of them just for the joy of being to RP the different races. Sorry, but anyone who feels on an OOC level that their race is better than another race is taking this game way to seriously. And I fail to see how languages make a race unique. Like I said before, an person who RPs a Rakash bought up in a very very Elothean household is far more culturally an Elothean than someone who picked an Elothean in the CM and never thought about it since. And this Rakash may have never met a single other Rakash in her entire life but can speak their langauge just because she was born a Rakash, yet she can't speak a word of the Elothean tounge? That just seems really silly to me on from an IC standpoint. SC and player of Reply |
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actually, i think it was starsha (sp?) who mentioned an enchante Jaebom --i still don't like the idea of it being an enchante, anyway, chances of something that broad getting scrapped are pretty high Reply |
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Yes I did mention the enchante <g> I just thought it would be nifty to give the Bards something to strive for after 50th and I thought understanding multiple languages would be pretty spiffy. And I forgot about the planned Voices spell. It just goes to show that at some point the GMs were considering the whole cross-race languages thing. Or maybe the spell was delayed/scrapped because they nearly have a system in place <g>. SC and player of Reply |
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>Yes I did mention the enchante <g> Ok, definatly didn't read back far enough then. Still hold with what I said about it though, would be a little silly having an enchante to teach languages in my opinion. -Fre' Reply |
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>>I still think that languages help define races, and it would be taking away identity from the more unique races to please the more mundane races. >Ummm...what defines a DR race as unique or mundane? Each one of them has a very unique history all of their own and are very interesting to play. Our opinion? Which happens to be bias ;). Some people might think "Dwarfs, pah. Dwarves are over used, they're so boring, blah blah blah", but do I think that? No, I think Dwarves are very unique and would be fun to RP. If you ask one person from each of the 11 different races, which is the best race? You're most likely going to get 11 different anwsers. And as best as I can anwser the question of what defines a DR race as unique or mundane? I would say.. the players. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And another thing to add to the laugauge debate on my part. One of the main reasons I either 1) Don't want other laugauges be able to be learned by othe races or 2) Very high scholorship requirment plus other things, like it taking a very very long time to learn the laugauge (150 scholarship doesnt mean that poof, you learn a laugauge) is because not everyone in DR are the greatest RPers. If 100 scholar was all that was required, suddenly everyone would be going around speaking other langauges. 100 scholar is _not_ hard to get, as I stated before, I almost have that much as a barb, and another barb stated the same. People won't be RPing special cases of how/why they know other langauges very much, or else 90% of the Realms would have a 'special case', because everyone would know 3 langauges. The majority would just say well I learned <insert laugauge> just because I wanted to, and have a lot of scholarship. The problem is that 10% RP nicely, 40% RP somewhat, and then 50% just don't RP, or do very poorly at it. And I do not agree with releasing something like this for that 10% when I know at least 40% are going to be almost abusing it. Hell even I would probably jump at the chance to learn me another laugauge, and I don't even have a reason to. If I can learn another laugauge then damned if I wouldn't, it would be pointless not to wouldnt it? There is a difference between a 'need', and a 'want'. Dragoonseal, once again going to bed, will debate tomorrow. Reply |
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>>Ok, definatly didn't read back far enough then. Still hold with what I said about it though, would be a little silly having an enchante to teach languages in my opinion. Never said it taught langauges. Just meant that the magic of the enchante would allow the Bard singing, and only the Bard singing, to temporarily understand langauges as the enchante was going on. Bard still couldn't speak in the langauge and it would be rather obvious when they are doing it, possiblely rather mana intensive as well. A singing bard can't exactly sneak up on ya. SC Reply |
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>Our opinion?...And as best as I can anwser the question of what defines a DR race as unique or mundane? I would say.. the players. Just as long as you understand it only your personal opinion <g>. My point is that each race IS very unique if you take the time to learn a little bit about them. Everyone person I've met who really RPs their race well is very interesting. Just because one floats your boat and the other does nothing for ya doesn't mean the race is better, it means that you happen to like the aspects of one race more than the other. I, for one, would never play a Skra because Skras just don't interest me but I wouldn't say that Skras are are mundane, just different :-) SC the PC and player of Reply |
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A sincere thank you for not letting these threads break down into something overly childish or name calling. Best time I've had debating something with people in awhile :-) SC and player of Reply |
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you realize use elemental, which is poor in most areas for something that constantly taps into mana, right? it's not like a mage who can use cambrinth and raise the mana that they are able to use in any given place, a bard is completely dependant upon the ambient mana, and quite frankly, it's hard to find places where we can play some of our more mana intensive ones already, including the one to raise the ambient mana in a room (someone out there know just how much mana is needed for nexus? i can't remember exactly, but i know it's too high to be of any real use to a bard other than for learning) Jaebom --enchantes are good, just not this one Reply |
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um...thank you i guess...always enjoyed a good debate...name-calling only serves to enfuriate me into utter defiance towards the other person. you prove me wrong, i'll accept it, no problem Jaebom --stop on by the bard guild sometime, we can get sloshed together Reply |
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>*THWAP* Ouch, definatly gunna have a good cry after that one. Wait....no I'm not. And SC thanks for correcting me, it's good to get ones facts straight when dealing with an utter moron. <drink a hearty sip of thwap away> -Fre' "Goes down ohh so smooth" Reply |
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<<Maybe you should read post 1060 again, and afterwards you won't need much help removing your foot from your mouth. Nobody even mentioned an enchante, which anyways would make absolutely no sense at all.>> CTRADER, I think you owe Ternith an apology, as in fact you were the one that stuck their foot in their mouth, but in your case your big toe is poking out the other way. Reply |
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::sigh:: Hate it when I speak to soon ::chuckles and runs for cover::
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<<it's good to get ones facts straight >> Your right it is. You should try it some times, ya fricking idiot. ~Ternith, who has changed his mind and going to post if the BM who TofC's vio's him isn't going to do the same to this foolish wench. Reply |
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and that had what to do with this thread? Jaebom --confused Reply |
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It sure shows that I've not been around all day, but I refuse to let this go. <<Respectfully Humm, Loq, Little to none of your post had anything to do with any aspects of respect. Thing like.... <<I'm sorry if it "cramps your style" to have to go inside and lock a door. Cry me a river. <<The Marines are elite only because they hold themselves above everyone else. Speaking as a soldier here, they're fulla hot air. ::wink:: <<The difference between SpecOps and the Marines is ANYONE can be a Marine. ..... are comments that are quite disrespectful from my point of view. The "::wink::" doesn't really take the edge off of it, either. I used these examples as references, and I suspect you do realize their validity. If you wish to go into an "Army vs. Marines" or Green Beret vs. Recon Ranger or Seals" issue, I am quite willing, but I do feel that this is not the proper forum. <<If the GMs held the same train of thought as you do, we would not even have Prydaen. Food for thought Here, I would like to ask a question.. "Were the new races brought to Elanthia due to the insistance of any segment of players that post on the Boards?" Honestly, I don''t know, but I would like to know if your rebuttal is valid or just "clever". I would really like the feed back about this, too. If so, fine, but if this is not the case then yous rebuttal is quite weak. <<If I want a private conversation in the real world, I don't simply start speaking in Spanish. Or Romanian, even. I go and find somewhere private and hold my conversation there. If you remove the chance of being overheard, you remove the risk of being overheard. I would like to remind you that just because you do something a certain way, that does not mean that everyone must respond in kind. How your characters act is your concern, but Loq has yet to prove himself as enough of a role model to Humm that he would even begin to emulate him. Not that he can't, just that he hasn't, yet. Feel free to sit in closets, but don't bother trying to tell me how my characters should act in like situations. If you think that Prydaen "aloofness" and "elitism" is bad, take it up with the GMs who designed them with these attitudes in mind. No sense shooting the messengers, as they say. I would like to point out that if Humm is somewhere alone with other prydaens who are speaking in their native tongue and a person of another race wanders by, Humm is not about to go to someplace else. To expect that is even more unreasonable than thinking that anyone talking in a language that you do not understand is speaking about you. Also, you might wish to take exception to anyone who speaks in their racial language in public. At least, I could view you as consistent, because you and a few others do seem to be singling out Prydaens in this thread. When Humm was at Stone Clan to help defend the interests of his dwarven friends and acquaintances, I noticed many conversations in Haakish. Does Humm object? No way. It is their right to do so, and He would stand to defend their right to speak their tongue almost as diligently as he would for those of his own race. There have been many time that I knew for fact that a person was in the company of the Pryde, which Humm is a member of, solely for the opportunity to listen in and spy for another. I could have left and conducted business elsewhere in a better controlled area, but elected to remain to be spied upon, instead. I felt that thwarting the "spy" in such a manner would be petty, expecially since there was never anything to hide. Only the comfort of speaking in the native tongue for RP purposes was the issue. I would think that those who are so concerned with role play issues would appreciate this, but it seems that some are only concerned with their own RP issues, and anothers concerns that might oppose them are viewed as rude or absolutely invalid. Michael, aka Humm "Proud Ears" Breaux Reply |
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<<<bards get their last thing besides titles at 36th, why would anyone wanna go higher than that other than titles? 60th is a circle rarely striven for, and generally concidered to have no point. If this were an ability given to Bards of 60th circle, then you would have a reason to get to 60th circle, wouldn't you? <chuckles> If it were an ability that were being given to bards at all, why make it easy pickins? To me, your argument just means you want something, and are willing to bully a way to get it. Hmmmm. Good point though. Why bother to earn something if you can just argue long enough or loud enough (reference to the all capps statements) and get the same results? Michael, aka Humm "Proud Ears" Breaux Reply |
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<<Ummm...what defines a DR race as unique or mundane? SC, you do have a very good point. May I take this moment to amend my previous statement to read "I still think that languages help define races, and it would be taking away identity from the more unique races to please the more mundane players. Thank you, Michael, aka Humm "Proud Ears" Breaux Reply |
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Starsha, I believe your proposal is quite interesting. If I were to suggest any amendments to you idea, I would not only require certain levels of scholarship from the person learning a language, but I would require equal or better ranks of teaching from the one who proposes to instruct the person who is to learn the languages ni question. Especially with that amendment, I think it is a well though out post. I also like the Enchante idea for Bards. Both have merit. In either case, the more paranoid types would have someone to hire so that they know for fact that they are not getting laughed at behind their backs, the poor little sausages. Michael, aka Humm "Proud Ears" Breaux. Reply |
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I think Ilithi and Hakaash should be swapped in difficulty, but other then that I kinda like the idea...I agree with the teaching req too. ~Daergoth Reply |
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Michael/Humm, <<Loq, Little to none of your post had anything to do with any aspects of respect>> Having read my postings in the past, you of all people should realize the sarcasm implicit in that word. It's foreshadowing on my part (IE "If you don't want to see someone get ripped into, skip this post."). <<..... are comments that are quite disrespectful from my point of view.>> I completely understand. I make certain that when someone brings it up over a beer, they end up with beer all over them. The intended effect (throwing your guard off) worked, however, and we've gotten to the true issues at hand (yeah, strategy. Who'd've thunk a Ranger would've used that?). <<If you wish to go into an "Army vs. Marines" or Green Beret vs. Recon Ranger or Seals" issue, I am quite willing, but I do feel that this is not the proper forum.>> Michael, you're a soldier. There is no more honorable profession in the world. Inter-branch rivalry is just something that comes with the territory. Marines may be loudmouths and braggarts, but they're still soldiers.. and when the shooting starts, I will still count on them to come get my can out of the fire zone (okay, so they typically just increase the conflammagration, but whatever -- I still find the chance to sneak out of my hiding place). Two totally different approaches to soldiery. Any comparison is moot, since the parallels are too far between to draw an accurate cross-section (this is not to mean I am diavowed of this argument, however). <<Here, I would like to ask a question.. "Were the new races brought to Elanthia due to the insistance of any segment of players that post on the Boards?" Honestly, I don''t know, but I would like to know if your rebuttal is valid or just "clever". I would really like the feed back about this, too. If so, fine, but if this is not the case then yous rebuttal is quite weak.>> Actually, the GMs more or less ignored the negative backlash on the whole thing, as I recall. And there was plenty, mind you. Shalnhh and Rowan (who were more or less responsible for the effort) pushed on despite the naysaying and eventually came up with the four new races. Apparently whether or not they'd actually be released was up in the air for a while, as the SGMs were trying to "feel out" the general player approval of the project (hard to do when the boards tends to overrepresent the vocal negative minority). Honestly, I think if the general leaning in GM thinking had been what yours has presented itself to be, Prydaen would still be sitting on a shelf. Along with Rakash, Gnomes and Kaldar. I, personally, feel you're doing everyone a disservice with the incredibly selfish bent of your stance. Inevitably, people will be cramped by new releases. I know not everyone wants to feel like they need to go somewhere private to make a conversation private, but everyone realizes it's the truth. There are, of course, options. Speaking in tongues, using codewords and a pre-agreed scramble. Whatever. There are also private areas that are outdoors. Matter of fact, I'm sitting in a room in Prime that probably hasn't seen another player in a year. <<I would like to remind you that just because you do something a certain way, that does not mean that everyone must respond in kind. How your characters act is your concern, but Loq has yet to prove himself as enough of a role model to Humm that he would even begin to emulate him. Not that he can't, just that he hasn't, yet. Feel free to sit in closets, but don't bother trying to tell me how my characters should act in like situations.>> My character would probably never deign to waste his precious few words on something so trivial anyway. He's well aware that time and circumstance are the best teachers, and he's willing to let them do the work for him. I make no commands, demands or anything of the like when something else (logic and common sense, inthis case) will do it for me. <<If you think that Prydaen "aloofness" and "elitism" is bad, take it up with the GMs who designed them with these attitudes in mind. No sense shooting the messengers, as they say.>> Oh, I do. Every time I get the chance I rail the design team for their complete lack of foresight and wisdom on this front. As a matter of fact, I think it was quite possibly the worst decision ever made by Shalnhh and Rowan, and that includes letting Itharr live (and that must be some sort of sin, I swear). <<I would like to point out that if Humm is somewhere alone with other prydaens who are speaking in their native tongue and a person of another race wanders by, Humm is not about to go to someplace else. To expect that is even more unreasonable than thinking that anyone talking in a language that you do not understand is speaking about you.>> Circumstance will dictate Humm's actions, not me. As they say, "do so at your own risk." I, personally, expect nothing but a lesson from time and circumstance. <<Also, you might wish to take exception to anyone who speaks in their racial language in public.>> I don't. I'm not paranoid. If you're talking about me, fine. If I catch wind of it, and it's negative, then you're in for a rumble. ::wink:: <<At least, I could view you as consistent, because you and a few others do seem to be singling out Prydaens in this thread.>> Prydaen singled themselves out. There was no outside help on that front. <<When Humm was at Stone Clan to help defend the interests of his dwarven friends and acquaintances, I noticed many conversations in Haakish. Does Humm object? No way. It is their right to do so, and He would stand to defend their right to speak their tongue almost as diligently as he would for those of his own race.>> Nobody is trying to deny a race their racial tongue. Far be it. But had Humm been able to understand and speak Haakish changed their conversation any? I seriously doubt it. <<There have been many time that I knew for fact that a person was in the company of the Pryde, which Humm is a member of, solely for the opportunity to listen in and spy for another. I could have left and conducted business elsewhere in a better controlled area, but elected to remain to be spied upon, instead. I felt that thwarting the "spy" in such a manner would be petty, expecially since there was never anything to hide.>> Then it's moot. The risk taken is yours, and what's the difference if the interloper is Human and not Prydaen? None, I should think. <<Only the comfort of speaking in the native tongue for RP purposes was the issue. I would think that those who are so concerned with role play issues would appreciate this, but it seems that some are only concerned with their own RP issues, and anothers concerns that might oppose them are viewed as rude or absolutely invalid.>> So speak Prydaenese. Nobody's stopping you. You'll just have to keep in mind that the sly-looking Rakash in the corner may understand what you're saying now. This is something that is an accepted facet of real life and, more to the point, an integral point of conflict (good and bad) in role-playing games in general. DR is poorer for its absence, currently. Loq Reply |
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I appreciate that this is a day late, but.. Gamgweth, Gerenshuge, Ilithic and Haakish all made very large contributions to the Common tongue. They should all be on the first tier. Olvi and Toggish are relatively simple languages, once you grasp the basic concept (it's food for both ::duck::). Personally? First tier: Gamgweth, Gerenshuge, Ilithic, Haakish, Olvi, Toggish. Second tier: Rakash, S'Kra Mur, Prydaen and Gorbesh. Also, I think it would be unreasonable to expect everyone to be able to speak every language properly. Anyone who's not S'Kra Mur, for instance, is probably going to have a rough time with all the hissing and chirring in the language. The learning system remains fine, but frankly, IMHO, output and productivity should still be covered by Charisma and Intelligence. Charisma for speaking, Intelligence for listening. First language at 100 ranks, unless it's 2nd tier, then it's 150 ranks. Every additional language thereafter requires 25 less ranks to learn, cumulative, to a minimum of 50 ranks. As a final note, it may be worthwhile to consider building non-PC languages into your chart, as we may well encounter goblins speaking Goblinoid and trolls chatting in Trollish if the system comes through. Loq Reply |
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While we're on this topic..... A few comments before I give my thoughts on this proposed system.... First: I'm still miffed that Elves have to speak 'Ilithic' The elven homelands are all over the map. Only Shard is in Ilithi and that's mostly an Elothean city... but they get their own language... If I'm not mistaken the Elves call their language Chui'lana... I think this was either a big oversight or a 'just don't care much' from the GM's. Second: I was around when the 'new' races were introduced. It was pretty funny. Around November there was a big push on the boards with new races suggestions etc... A GM at the time said.. NO... uncategorically no races planned. We got them in February. Go figure that one out... so those of you pushing for new guilds, you never know. Third: The idea of a Bard enchante to help UNDERSTAND (not learn) someone speaking in another language is a really good one. Very in-game and makes complete sense. How else is a bard to get the feel for a city or an Inn in a foreign province to cater their performance. A few Bard Enchantes don't take much mana to keep going... the Grace and the Eye (especially the eye) can be kept going almost indefinitely so an enchante of this type wouldn't necesssarily be hard to keep going - with a high enough skill. I would suggest making it a little more mana intensive than the eye so the bards with better harness and music lore can keep it running in lower mana areas. Hmm.. opens up a whole thought about finding a 'null' area to have a private conversations ::grin:: This is one of the first fairly well thought out systems of learning languages I've read.... Sure it has some bugs and could | |||||||||||